Success On Your Terms with guest Liam Leonard

Success means different things to different people. Often the image of a corporate executive is a family goal, life long career pursuit, and even a large part of a person’s personal identity. Liam Lenorad was on the path backed by a Yale education, a rocket ship career path, and all the right sponsors. Not to mention his family’s expectations. One day he decided that success should be on his terms and he transformed his life and profession to be a more fulling existence. Choosing success on his terms and to make a difference in his community and for small businesses.

im Kubiak 0:29
Hi, thanks for listening to bow ties in business. Today we’re going to talk about a journey from what was this going to be the C suite, and international roles of a multinational corporation to, frankly, running your own business in the world of finance and mortgage. With that I’m joined by Liam Leonard, we’re going to really just have an open conversation today. So if you’re running a business, you know, have started a business or in some point, your career, and we might even talk a little bit about career changes for people that are midstream. Stay tuned. If you want to learn more about Lim and what he does, it’s DML cap.com. And with that, thanks for being here today. Thanks. Happy to be here and look forward to the conversation in your had me on your show. So if you don’t mind, plug your show a little bit as an opener, how about that?

Liam Leonard 1:19
Sounds good. So I also run a show called the prosperity perspective, we’re focused on having conversations with successful business owners in understanding how they protect their wealth, what they do today to continue to preserve that. And then also looking back to see you know, what they did earlier in their careers as they were becoming successful, and what advice they have for other business owners who might be going through that journey as well.

Tim Kubiak 1:46
So I absolutely loved our conversation there. And I’m so excited for today. But if you’re listening, definitely go check it out. So let’s talk about your background. Started in a different field versus than mine, but you worked internationally and you have, you know, you’re on the fast track, and you decided to change courses. So can you give a little bit of setup and background there?

Liam Leonard 2:08
I can. So my background, although I, I look very white, and very typical American heritage is actually Chinese. And so my dad was born and raised in Hong Kong, I bring that up because my upbringing was very much a tiger mom type environment. And I was I was raised to succeed from the very beginning and nothing but the best was sufficient. And so that led me on a course of you know, excelling in school excelling in academics, continuing to push for success and greater and greater achievement as a condition for kind of why I was here. And so as I grew up, I learned Spanish wanted to learn Chinese to tie it to my heritage. And so I speak both those languages today. Reading and writing on the Chinese side, not as good as what it used to be. Memory is definitely fading and when you don’t use it every day, but so that led me on a course where I went to Yale, I studied economics at Yale, I played soccer while I was there. And while I was at Yale, I did an international to international students one on one, I went and I lived over in Spain. I lived in Serbia, I worked to essentially uncover trade opportunities between Spain and China. So got to leverage some of my background and affinities for those countries for a private investor group. And then they the year after that I went lived in China was studying at bay VA. So for those of you who know Bay that are Peking University, essentially, it’s the Ivy League of China, because my parents would have nothing, nothing less than that. And so I got to play soccer over there, go to school over there as well. And so kind of curious, but for me, the International culture was always something that was very important. And I wove in to my career. coming out of college, I joined Nestle. So, you know, largest food and beverage company in the world doesn’t get much more corporate than Nestle. And part of why I did that, and what I loved about them was they had the international presence. And they had expats and they encouraged you living abroad and, you know, taking in that journey, and so, with them, I actually got to go down. I worked in Mexico City for a while I worked in San Paolo for a while I worked in Lima for a while and kind of got to leverage kind of the benefits of that big company and really sent me on this path. Of how do I go and become a CEO of a multinational company. And so, you know, from early in college, that was kind of my goal, I knew I wanted to run a company, I knew my personality was one that I’m much better when I’m in charge, I don’t do well taking direction that I don’t believe in. And so there were some challenges along my journey. That definitely questioned some of that. But from a background perspective, that was kind of, essentially what I was bred to do, was to go around a big company and was well on my way to doing that.

Tim Kubiak 5:40
So what made you step away, because that is a hell of a trajectory to come from. Yeah.

Liam Leonard 5:48
So to kind of continue, after I joined Nestle, I started in the operations procurement department. And so I was negotiating media in Africa, advertising contracts. From there, I went into marketing. From Nestle, I went, and I worked for Pepsi as part of their innovation unit, and I worked in marketing for their innovation unit. From there, I joined I got my MBA on the side, from Andersen, in finance, International Studies. And I also got a little real estate finance component because that was something I envisioned, I would build my personal portfolio while I was doing this other international thing. And so after graduation, I went in, I joined T Mobile, in essentially an executive development program. They sent me to run a call center in Colorado Springs, and then I ran sales for Sacramento in Utah. And then I went up to headquarters and ran a big portion of the accessories business, right. So I bring those experiences up, because my trajectory was all about how do I gain experience in different functions, so I can be the best CEO. possible, right, understand how these different components worked. And was that to your point, Tim, I was on a very good track and moving very quickly. What made me leave was, I realized, and it was tough, I switched jobs every nine to 12 months, right. So all of those jobs that I just articulated, happened in a probably a four to five year window of kind of both movements and different responsibilities. And so this rapid learning is one thing that I learned one thing that I cherish, personally, right as a value. However, what I realized was I was substituting that ability to learn for being unhappy in the environment. And so there were a couple of realizations that I had one was in a corporate structure, how you make the corporation work efficiently, is really to have a bunch of cogs that make the machine run. If you have someone who’s underperforming and doesn’t carry their weight, that’s a bad thing, because the machine doesn’t operate effectively. But what people don’t often don’t recognize is that if you over perform, and you push against the machine to be more efficient, or do things differently, that’s also a bad thing. Because it challenges the machine and the machine doesn’t operate smoothly. And so I would get into these situations where I would, again, going back to my personality, I would push and strive to make things better. And I was often met with heavy resistance, because it’s it’s not the way we do things or that would take too long or, you know, that would sacrifice short term, you know, profitability or ability to hit a short term goal, even though it might be better in the long run. And so missing the short term goal met people miss bonuses, and so it has a financial impact, right? So there’s a there’s a disincentive to kind of working outside of machine. And so I came up with this. This little, I wrote it on a sticky note one day, and it sits on my screen and essentially says everyone is replaceable. And in the corporate structure that’s truer than most where it’s designed to kind of swap people in and out and that ability to can keep things on a steady continual growth. So I think that was one I think the other component was I was getting really tired of the amount of time and effort that it took to position yourself for the next promotion or the next role. which essentially boils down to politics, right? But you’ve got to spend a lot of time building the right relationships, having the right support structure, from people who are in higher positions to help Through, help showcase your work, right get put on special projects. And just spending an inordinate amount of time to try to get those things to position myself for success. That either didn’t correlate, right, or it was just a lot of added effort that didn’t directly for me relate to the direction

that we were trying to go, right. And that got complicated when you ran into someone who then felt threatened, who was above you, right, and then my, you know, give you a project, but then simultaneously tried to undermine that project, so you’re not successful. And then you’re working twice as hard, right? Because then you’ve got it, you’ve got to have an even deeper network to overcome, right and executive who’s in that role that doesn’t support you. And then you’ve got to execute, when they don’t give you the resources, you need to be able to execute and just got tired at the Bs, quite frankly. So that was the second thing. The third thing was I felt more and more disconnected from the community. And being able to help him support the community in a meaningful way. And so what I mean by that is, you know, all those organizations have large commitments to the communities and how they serve them and give back. But those activities are largely held by a small group of people within a function whose role is managing those community relations. Whereas for me, and I look at my dad, who eventually went and ran his own company as well. He’s a pillar in the community, right? So he sits on a lot of nonprofit boards, right? He’s out and about on different events, he’s helping enrich people’s lives. And I didn’t feel like I had that purpose. And it wasn’t satiating that for me, in the roles that I was having, the last role that I had with TMobile was in an accessories role, where we were able to boost the numbers. And we did that through extending lines of credit to low income low qualified borrowers to buy accessories. That bluntly, they didn’t mean, right, like, Why does a family of six need a $300 speaker that we’re then going to put on credit, and, you know, factor in I will call a loss, right. And it was propelling this never ending consumerism in my mind that I’ve got an economics degree and a finance degree, right. So capitalist at heart, and I love the free market. But this this never ending, search for more and more and more, is categorically just opposed to my moral values. And so the ability to kind of take a step back and say, I don’t know if this is the best thing for these people, right? Like, there’s so many better things they could be doing with their money. So that, you know, wanting to be involved and actually, you know, help people.

Unknown Speaker 13:07
It was a big

Liam Leonard 13:08
driver, the straw that broke the camel’s back, because they eventually my next role was going to be then in Cleveland or Baltimore. And that just wasn’t a place that I was willing to go. So I had been thinking about all these other things. And with that one coming in, it was like, Okay, it’s time to go, and let’s get off the hamster wheel. And let’s try something different. And so that’s when I really made the decision that you know, chasing this never ending promotion for more and more work, and less and less time with the family and less, you know, ability to be a part of the community was just not a direction I wanted to hit anymore. And so

Unknown Speaker 13:47
I broke

Liam Leonard 13:48
away and best decision I ever made.

Tim Kubiak 13:53
So I’m gonna ask a couple questions I didn’t plan to because I think a lot of people listening, frankly, have heard about trajectories like you’ve talked about. But I don’t think they understand the impact, right, of what it takes on us a person, not the business. The not staying in a job for more than nine months or a year, because you’re successful. The pressure of relocation, rebuilding your staff, the toll that takes and you know, what that does both short term and long term? Do you mind talking a little bit about that?

Liam Leonard 14:27
Yeah. So basically, in every new role that I took, he’s got, you’ve got a 30 day grace period, so to speak. And in that grace period, you have to, you have to win the hearts and minds of all your employees, and you have to align them on whatever your strategic objectives are. Right. And so in order to do that, within 30 days, you really got a week, maybe that you got to dissect your role and where you’re headed, to what’s the what’s the top priority that needs to be accomplished. If you need to move the team forward in a meaningful way, and then you’ve got to get everyone aligned to why they need to do that, right? easy to do, if it’s aligned to what had been done previously, right? Then you’re really taking in, you’re optimizing, right? You’re trying to find, you know, people who can do a little bit more stretch, people give him a little more responsibility to to have success that way. But more often than not, I was being put in roles that something was wrong. Alright, just when you got to go in and fix something, then you’ve got to change the inertia of the entire team. And so, you know, when I say it takes seven days, it takes seven days of 12 to 18 hour days, to be able to get that done, right? And then you’ve got to be able to the working hours you’re spending with the team, right? Help me understand what’s going on, what do we do today? What are the issues, what works well, for you, trying to keep the things that are things that are working well, are the things that the team likes, right, so that you can rally around that, and then breaking off the pieces where there’s disconnect, and replacing them with new components, right, so to speak, to be able to move forward. And so during the, during the waking hours, you’re spending with the team, right, you’re trying to build a relationship, you’re trying to understand what’s going on. And then all your real work happens after hours. Right. And that’s the only time you’ve got the ability to do anything strategic. So at the time, it was just myself and my wife. And there was largely an understanding that, you know, hey, that career trajectory was super important. We were moving all the time. And so fortunately, I had someone who was bought in who understood that and was aligned to making those sacrifices, what it meant was work was the number one priority, right? You’re putting in so much time and mental energy, that oftentimes you don’t have a lot of bandwidth left at the end of the day to give to your significant significant other, right, for anything personal in that matter, right? You try to weave the personal hobbies into the work component wherever possible. Right, and team building events or you know, things like that. But, again, it’s all secondary, right? It’s a tactic to build relationships. So that’s really tough. And then, I mean, moving every nine months. Physically, right, most often, for us, it was different states is incredibly stressful. There’s never a move or something doesn’t break. There’s never a move where you move somewhere else in your furniture magically fits the space that you find, right? So. And then you’ve got the relational comfort, right? Like, you’ve got to figure out how to create harmony with your significant other and how you live in that. house you how you build community, right? And then the other part, like, friends, like friends didn’t largely don’t exist. Because you don’t have time. Like, how do you build a friendship when you’re working 12 to 18 hour days, and then your spare time is spent trying to build or maintain a relationship with your significant other, right? There’s, there’s zero sense of community. You again, you try to weave it in with the workpiece, right, where you’re taking people out or you’re going to happy hours, and but it gets stressful, and it’s lonely. And there’s, there’s a lot that you take on in terms of that burden, right. And so it was part of that switch of those things that three things that I was articulating canon when, you know, my wife sat down, and she looked at me and she basically said, When is it going to stop? You know, every time you get promoted, you take on more work, and it’s more stressful, and it doesn’t really change, right? You spend the first month is miserable, because you’re always working months two and three are pretty bad. And then you get into a flow and things are okay, and then we move again. And so like we’re on this journey, does that does that change? Right? Because you don’t want to be in a role, like two years was probably the upper limit, right? And

Tim Kubiak 19:28
you’re stuck after that. Let’s be honest, if you’ve got more than two years, you haven’t grown your org, or your span of control your code,

Liam Leonard 19:38
but you’re cold but true. And so when was it gonna stop? Right? That was for question to me. And we were starting to think about kids, right? And so then you start thinking about kids and you start thinking about, you know, what’s the life that your kid is going to have? Can you imagine a kid growing up like put yourself in a As a kid, would you want a life where your dad was ever there? Right was only there sparingly, right? And like that just eat at my soul? And it was like, okay, it’s it’s not it’s not feasible, right? And then you start looking at, I looked at top executives and I looked at, you know, what does their life really look like? They’re on planes all the time, they’re on the phone all the time. majority of them have failed relationships of some sort, or multiple failed relationships. Right? It’s just not a priority, it comes second, right? And at a certain company at a certain point in time, it’s going to create a conflict,

right? Yeah, those? How do you tell your wife that you’re second all the time?

Tim Kubiak 20:46
Like, yeah, and by the way, jack goes over poorly. recommend it, right. Yeah. Yeah, telling your partner that they come by work is a recipe for disaster, I can say firsthand.

Liam Leonard 21:02
So you know, short-term, sure. Don’t get some buy-in, right. But after five years of that, basically, the conversation was enough or is enough. And you basically have to choose right? Like, what do you value more? Do you value being that, you know, C suite executive that that pushes and has the power has the control? Has the title has the ego, right? All of those things that I was again, bred to fill that position? Right? Where do you take a step back and you say, you know, hey, life is short. And there’s more to it than me being successful in the business world and filling that role. And there’s plenty of other ways that I can be successful and have a more fulfilling life. And so that realization didn’t happen overnight. Right? That’s probably a two to three-year journey and a battle with myself. And the most difficult part was probably going back to my parents to say, I’m going in a different direction, right? And to them, right, particularly my father, to tell him I’m leaving a successful job where I’m super well compensated, and everything is taken care of where there’s no concerns about the family. And in my case, was to figure something out or start something new, was like, you’re doing what? Like, why are you doing that? Are you sure? Right, and just, you know, seeds of doubt, they get planted immediately. Right. And it’s, it’s all about self-preservation, right, from my father’s perspective, right, and making sure that I can be successful in the future. But

Tim Kubiak 22:57
that conversation was really tough. Yeah, yeah. So it’s interesting because I had a different path. And I worked for small companies and had a history of m&a. Right. So you got acquired, you had to rebuild. You had your seven days, you had to do it before due diligence, even started, make sure you had a chair, and then you were going into somebody else as you grow, right. And that life on a plane, that fast track that rocket ship that you see in movies, they never show the toll that you just described. Yeah. And by the way, I am the worst guy at work life balance, who asked my partner, I am horrendous. And, you know, in for me, it’s been a two year journey to not work 20 hours a day. Right? Because I don’t know about you, you made a comment about friends. One of the things I realized is, I lived in St. Louis now for 18 years, I probably have three friends in the city. I have more friends, and Seattle, New York and London than I will ever have here. Because for my business life sport.

Liam Leonard 24:06
Makes perfect sense, right? I’m fortunate that my wife has pulled me into some of her social circles. Right? having kids is a great way to expand that. Right and so fortunate that that helped us jumpstart some things. And then you know, expanding beyond that, but it’s we had to be very deliberate about building a social network right? Because you don’t have time to just go hang out and see who you meet right like it’s okay we’re going to for us it was going to church right we need to make sure we plugged into a church community and there’s a whole network of people there that you know doesn’t typically interface for me I get my I hate I hate working out on my own and so we need to get exercise was always through sports. Yeah. So for me, it was how do I plug into that communities people and build a network of friends there, right? And so through a couple of deliberate actions, right, you start to build some networks of some friends. But if we didn’t sit down and say, Hey, this is really important, and never would have gotten done, right, that space and time would have gotten filled with what comes next on the job flight, and how do we, you know, how do we progress? And there’s tension, right? Like, you’re not available on a Sunday to bang something out for an executive meeting on a Monday because, you know, you’re, you’re going to church, you’re spending time with friends or whatever. Like, they don’t understand that they don’t understand that. You’re all in. You’re all in and you’re all in all the time. Right? And if you’re not, and that track is just, it’s typically not for you. Yeah, yeah, now you escaped, I feel liberating is the best word. And I’m still discovering That’s right, a lot of mental shackles that I put on myself, in terms of like, Hey, this is the way it needs to be, this is the only path you need to be successful here. And that’s why we ask that, like, there’s so many other ways to be successful, right. And this is still to have purpose and to have meaning and to explore happiness. Right? And so, a lot of big things there. Right. But when you start, you know, sitting down and thinking about it, right? There’s, there’s plenty of studies that, you know, once you reach a certain income level, the increased income above that does not actually impact happiness in any meaningful way. And it’s like, okay, okay, so if you’re not going to get happier by spending getting more money, and you acknowledge that there’s a quote, unquote, plateau, right to that financial component, then it just frees you, right? Like, you’re not chasing stuff to go and, you know, get a promotion to earn more money, because you think you need more money to go do X, Y, Z, it say, Hey, I’m happy, and I’m content. And I’d rather not do that. So I can go take my family on a vacation, or, you know, spend time with friends, right, whatever those things may be. So super liberating there, right. And then, I mean, the other aspect, now that I own my own business, and you know, we’re starting to be successful, is really the impact that I get to have on employees lives. You know, both mental, mental, physical, right, from a mental health perspective, and the things that we do from a cultural perspective, being in law for insurance, right, you know, taking care of their livelihoods is super important, and something that I’m grateful for, and giving back to the community, right, so we give back, you know, at least 10% of everything we do to charitable organizations. And so most of those are local, or smaller organizations that were plugged into, right, or we do serve on the Board of some of the larger ones, like Boys and Girls Club. But again, all those are local clubs, right. And so to the extent that we can enrich people’s lives and help others who don’t have the same opportunity that we do, has really become a core focus. And I love that.

Tim Kubiak 28:31
And that’s really, we talked about friends, that’s actually a really interesting way. Because my, my friends in St. Louis, outside of the three that I referenced for the yoga studio, right, and yoga was almost ritualistic for me being there, because it was the same people. And in many cases, we add different industries. But we were in the same world. So it connected us, much like your sports did, right? And then serving on boards isn’t glorious. If you’ve never done it, and you’re listening, right? It is not this fantastic thing where they roll up all this great stuff. You’re actually doing a lot of the groundwork for it. Is that fair? Yes,

Liam Leonard 29:14
exactly. You’re a you’re essentially a consultant for the company. That’s almost always it depends on the organization. Right. But the ones we work with pro bono, right? Yeah. So they’re tapping into your knowledge and your expertise. And it’s a lot of work, right? Because you’re solving strategic ignition and then for another company. And if you want to do I can’t do anything half assed, right, so something’s given to me, I’m gonna do it well, and so then it creates, effectively a second job, right? For every board that you take on.

Tim Kubiak 29:53
Yeah. So you kept your workday down to 10 or 12. But now you’re on board so it’s back to 1416 you Yeah, yeah. So you touched on health care as a business owner food challenge, actually, it’s something I’m dealing with, with CPI right now, right, that I’m helping build. And I don’t think if you’re a business owner, you realize how challenging and how costly healthcare in America really is. And I don’t mean to turn this into a political conversation, but with your economics background, right. thoughts on that? Yeah, it’s

Liam Leonard 30:31
it’s fascinating, because we didn’t we set up with all of our employees who came in, not to expect healthcare, that we weren’t going to be offering benefits, right? Because, you know, as you’re ramping a new company, to your point, there’s a huge operational and overhead component that you take on, right, legally, you have to pay a minimum of 50% of employees health care, responsibility, right. So whatever an employee is looking at, and thinking their health care costs are high, the employer is already covering at least half of that. And it’s it’s a massive number, right? And you’re talking, you know, anywhere from 500 to 1000 bucks a month per employee, that you’re adding, you know, just straight costs, right? There’s, there’s no, there’s a benefit to the company to having healthy, well balanced employees, for sure. But there’s no direct tie to output. Right. And so my economics brain, as you’re talking about inputs and outputs, and, you know, marginal cost of adding things, the, the marginal benefit of adding health care is technically zero. Right. And it’s, so that’s one that’s it’s an altruistic component, essentially, that that we did, to put in place. But I mean, the the burden is massive, right? our, our employees are mostly commission based, right. And we’re commission based, so we don’t have to carry an overhead. And with healthcare, you’re introducing an overhead that, you know, if you have a bad month, it’s coming out of my pocket, just to make sure we can continue to move forward, right. Like, you don’t get a pass on healthcare costs. And every year they increase, it’s becoming harder and harder. Right. And I think there’s more and more stress, particularly the trying not to get political here, right. But essentially, we’ve entered a bifurcated environment, right? where everyone is being asked to pick sides, and everything is very polarizing, right. So for the healthcare perspective, it’s the same, where you’ve got 10 of Obamacare options, which is then increase the cost of the private market, because they have fewer subscribers that are on their plants and their network, right. So the only way they can continue to offer with rising healthcare is to increase rates. And so as an employer, I don’t get to go to Obamacare and be like, Hey, what’s the employer plan? How are we gonna make this work? It’s a no, you got to figure it out on your own right? And so high cost there, that you’ve got to take on? And the bifurcation, right, either this or that, I think, is really bad. I think it’s a terrible situation, right. And I think that spills over onto the political side as well, where there’s just, there’s so much more we have in common that we’re, as we’re focusing on the differences. It’s creating division, and pitting us against each other, where there’s so much more opportunity to work together and find those points of similarity, right. And so I think we, as an, as an economist, having a state run program and a free enterprise, right? No market limitations program, trying to run simultaneously, will never work. There’s no, something’s gonna break at some point in time, and you’re gonna have to go one way or the other. It will be interesting to see how that plays out. But, you know, short term, it’s, you know, we’re fortunate that the business has been successful that we have the profitability to cover those expenses. But I mean, every year we forecasted, it’s larger and larger number and a bigger and bigger component, but it’s not easy to take on particularly as a smaller, medium sized business.

Tim Kubiak 34:44
And there’s no predictability. Right, you’re in if you haven’t dealt with it, there’s employee age bands and everything and, you know, sometimes you can find a good HR firm that can bring you some level of coverage. That’s the same price regardless of employee age. Right. But in some cases, if your age spend is wide, right, you could have a person in your late 20s, who is $750 a month. And we’re the same quality of care for an individual who’s in their late 50s. The company’s obligation, there could be upwards of $3,000. For them, they have 100% coverage. And if you look at the 50%, split your 15 $100. And that’s why you, by the way, if you haven’t chosen, that’s why you see the buy up plans and insurers offer that high deductible piece, or at least my opinion on that

Liam Leonard 35:32
now completely agree. Yeah, our, our employee ease who are on the upper end of that age bracket are more than double. It’s typically between two to 3x. What are younger employees? Right? And so, I mean, if you start playing that out, right. And you, you’re talking about ageism, right? Yeah. It’s cheaper for me to hire someone younger than someone older. Right? That’s like, that shouldn’t have to be a consideration. Like that, that factors in right. And we, obviously, we try to eliminate that from our hiring practices. But from a finance side, you see it, and it’s a real number that you pass to, you has to be able to manage.

Tim Kubiak 36:21
So one last question, before we close out, you’re on your own, the business is doing well talk a little bit about what you do.

Liam Leonard 36:28
Yeah. So at DML capital, were essentially a mortgage lender, so anything related with real estate finance, if you need a loan on your primary residence, or you’re looking to invest, or you’ve got a unique situation, we help do all of those loans. We also work with, for those of you who watch HGTV, and the fix and flippers, right? And they’re talking about, Hey, I got this loan at 10%, or 9%, or 12%, we do those loans as well. And so we’ve got we work with a group of investors, and then we work with a group of borrowers, right. And so back to the fulfillment and the community piece, we’re helping people either put more money in their pocket or you know, get into a home of their dreams, or, you know, whatever that may be, which is super fulfilling. And on the investor side, you know, we’re helping them preserve for their future. And make sure that they’ve got, you know, their wealth allocation sorted out as well. And so, love the space that we’re in. I love that it’s super local. Alright, so we work primarily Washington, California, for the more traditional loans for the fix and flip type loans, we do work nationwide, but focus in California and Washington there and so, but that’s kind of what we do.

Tim Kubiak 37:46
Yeah. Finance is a whole separate conversation. We didn’t get to have this. So we’ll have to have you back and talk about the economics of frankly, your clients and how they look at some point.

Liam Leonard 37:57
Yeah, that’d be fascinating. But obviously something I love giving my family finance background and being able to help people and that’s that’s the most fulfilling piece for me, right every client we get to work with, regardless of where they are, they’re better off through working with us and there’s nothing better from my perspective than being able to do that for people.

Tim Kubiak 38:20
That’s great. And I love that you get off the treadmill some someday I will actually get off it I I’ve literally had the workaholic conversations a lot lately. But you know, part of it is it is old shackles, as you said. You there is an expectation that you live a certain way and that is really hard habit to break. Not easy. Now. Lynne, thanks for being here today. I appreciate it. Tim. Take care. You did